Saturn seasons

[Gerald Kelleher]

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https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/resources/4621/a-change-of-seasons-on-saturn/

Saturn has roughly the same inclination of the Earth (Saturn/26.9 Degrees) and also turns parallel to the orbital plane as a function of its orbital motion hence both changes its orientation to the Sun while maintaining the same fixed orientation to the outside Universe as the Earth does.

Anyone using their normal judgments of planetary motion would immediately recognize from the animated time lapse that it displays the feature of axial precession but this is referenced to the central Sun rather than the background stars .

The Precession of the Equinoxes is really a more refined version of the leap day correction where the proportions of rotations to an orbital circuit is not exactly 365 1/4 rotation to one orbital circuit so this too requires a major adjustment but the point here is to free up twin rotations each planet has each orbital circuit as an explanation for the seasons and daily variations in the length of the day/night cycle -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession#/media/File:Earth_precession.svg

Were the Earth to have Equatorial rings it too would display the same gyration to the Sun as Saturn presently does but that is the beginning of a nuanced approach to two surface rotations of the Earth.

[Gerald Kelleher]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn#/media/File:Saturnoppositions-animated.gif

At a first glance the observed motion of Saturn relative to the Sun throughout its orbit would seem generate an axial precession of the North and South poles but like the Earth's fixed orientation to Polaris but there is no gyration of Saturn's daily rotation traits, that is just an illusion due to the presence of a surface rotation as a function of the planet's orbital motion.

The ringed planet Uranus is perhaps a lead in to discerning what happens with Saturn and ultimately what happens with the Earth so these magnificent gas giants have something to instruct us is we care to observe. About 50 seconds in as the time lapse speeds up, the two surface rotations (minus the circle of illumination to which they are referenced) become obvious to an enjoyable and practical degree -

[Gerald Kelleher]

The description of planetary seasons is currently awkward and generally the explanation only surfaces at the Solstices or Equinoxes based on 'tilt'. At first glance the remedy doesn't look much better when isolated by a planet's orbital motion -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturn#/media/File:Saturnoppositions-animated.gif


How to explain the changing axial orientation to the Sun while maintaining a fixed orientation to the background stars should engage astronomers as it is an observation certainty that a planet displays two surface rotations to either the Sun or the circle of illumination -

http://hubblesite.org/video/175/news_release/1999-11


The great gas giants show the way to the Earth's seasons and the continuity which fills in the gaps between Solstices and Equinoxes.

[Gerald Kelleher]

In a little over a week, the South Pole will arrive at its maximum distance from the circle of illumination thereby will be at the center of the 33,312 mile Antarctic circle.

https://vimeo.com/172453097

No doubt they will trundle out the usual 'tilting' Earth next week while the beautiful and graceful rotations remain ignored even when other planets help explain why, in order to maintain constant orientation to the stars throughout an orbit, the Earth must turn once to the central Sun hence the June Solstice and Polar midnight at the South Pole and Polar noon at the North polar latitude.

In any case, contemporary time lapse is genuinely beautiful and I am in love with the journey of my life with the journey of the planet.

[Gerald Kelleher]

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https://vimeo.com/172453097

The Polar points exist on the circle of illumination on the Equinoxes and midway to the circle of illumination on the Solstices.The surface rotation parallel to the orbital plane alters the daily arcs so even though the following graphic falsely attributes the direction from 'orbital' North-West to South-East in direction for the September Solstice, it is a small error due to unfamiliarity with the principles involved (even if I would notice) -

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The broken line through the center of the Earth is important for referencing the constant relationship of the North and South poles as they turn ,along with the entire surface of the Earth, parallel to that line as a function of the Earth's orbital motion.

It should have dedicated graphics of course but it is always on offer for those who can work with the principles behind the seasons for our home planet and all other planets.

[Gerald Kelleher]

* That would be the September Equinox where the direction of rotation is 'orbital' North West to South East using the East-West orbital plane as a reference -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Space_Climate_Observatory#/media/File:EpicEarth-Globespin-tilt-23.4.gif

http://afewbitsmore.com/img/2015_ecliptic.png

The circle of illumination provides another visible reference and especially using the rotation of the North and South poles along with the entire surface of the Earth parallel to that orbital plane. The most dramatic experience of this is certainly Polar sunrise and sunset where the Sun comes into view or turns out of sight for 6 months at a time at either poles.

[Gerald Kelleher]

https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/raw_images/323982/

The phases of the Earth seen from Saturn compliment the perspectives which will always divide faster moving planets from slower moving ones depending on which planet in the solar system the images are taken from, only the furthest and closest planets from the Sun are denied one perspective or the other.

I believe the astronomical community can do better by collating imaging into a simple narrative and finally put the remainders the the geocentric perspectives to rest or the troublesome celestial sphere perspectives. While many online forums do carry imaging like the one above, only in SAA have these imaging given or assigned relevance in a meaningful way. The fact that nobody comes here anymore is irrelevant.

[palsing]

Post by Gerald Kelleher
https://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/raw_images/323982/
The phases of the Earth seen from Saturn compliment the perspectives which will always divide faster moving planets from slower moving ones depending on which planet in the solar system the images are taken from, only the furthest and closest planets from the Sun are denied one perspective or the other.
I believe the astronomical community can do better by collating imaging into a simple narrative and finally put the remainders the the geocentric perspectives to rest or the troublesome celestial sphere perspectives. While many online forums do carry imaging like the one above, only in SAA have these imaging given or assigned relevance in a meaningful way. The fact that nobody comes here anymore is irrelevant.

Do you know what else you could see from Saturn? That would be our own moon rotating on its axis, once for each revolution it makes around the Earth.

[Gerald Kelleher]

Post by palsing
Do you know what else you could see from Saturn?

Anyone, at least with common sense, could have made the observation that we extract the information that we along with the other planets travel around the Sun by assigning relevance to different aspects like phases for a faster moving planet or the temporary falling behind in view (direct/retrograde motion) that is easily discernible for the further out planets -

https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html

People must imagine that these observations must come with some sort of formal decorum when really they pop up out of the blue and the astronomer takes notice. Nobody pointed out before that observations from Mercury wouldn't show phases of any of the other planets while observations from Venus would show phases of Mercury but even when people seem hard to please nowadays, these things delight those who can appreciate them for their newness.

[palsing]

Post by Gerald Kelleher

Post by palsing
Do you know what else you could see from Saturn?

Anyone, at least with common sense, could have made the observation that we extract the information that we along with the other planets travel around the Sun by assigning relevance to different aspects like phases for a faster moving planet or the temporary falling behind in view (direct/retrograde motion) that is easily discernible for the further out planets -
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html
People must imagine that these observations must come with some sort of formal decorum when really they pop up out of the blue and the astronomer takes notice. Nobody pointed out before that observations from Mercury wouldn't show phases of any of the other planets while observations from Venus would show phases of Mercury but even when people seem hard to please nowadays, these things delight those who can appreciate them for their newness.

It may be 'newness' to you, but to many of us, it is not. Many of us have been aware of your new perspectives for a very long time. Congratulations to you for finally understanding some of these little details.

Now, about that moon of ours... do you finally understand that from Saturn, for example, one would observe it to rotate on its axis once for each of its revolutions around out Earth? If not, well, I guess it is back to the drawing board for you...

[Gerald Kelleher]

Post by palsing

Post by Gerald Kelleher

Post by palsing
Do you know what else you could see from Saturn?

Anyone, at least with common sense, could have made the observation that we extract the information that we along with the other planets travel around the Sun by assigning relevance to different aspects like phases for a faster moving planet or the temporary falling behind in view (direct/retrograde motion) that is easily discernible for the further out planets -
https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap011220.html
People must imagine that these observations must come with some sort of formal decorum when really they pop up out of the blue and the astronomer takes notice. Nobody pointed out before that observations from Mercury wouldn't show phases of any of the other planets while observations from Venus would show phases of Mercury but even when people seem hard to please nowadays, these things delight those who can appreciate them for their newness.

It may be 'newness' to you, but to many of us, it is not. Many of us have been aware of your new perspectives for a very long time. Congratulations to you for finally understanding some of these little details.

Easy to be nonplussed despite the individual effort to untangle different perspectives which caused perceptual obstructions including the awkward direct/retrograde motion of the faster moving Venus -

It means that the daily change in position of the background stars using a central/stationary Sun as a foreground reference is proof of the Earth's orbital motion and essential in making sense of Venus phases and its smaller orbital circumference and faster motion around the Sun. I would show you the animation but Sky&Telescope have pulled the graphic from YouTube so the images will suffice -

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It is no mean feat to provide proof of the Earth's orbital motion alone minus any effect of daily rotation including circumpolar motion of the stars. It is as though you have to step off that rotating celestial sphere carousel to enjoy motions of the planets and the Earth as they really are, it may not be for you but others can do better.

[Chris.B]

Post by Gerald Kelleher
but others can do better.

No. _ALL_ others can do better.
Beware the chronic creosote fixer.
Swaying like a snake oil salesman on his worn out beer crate.

His mummy made a psychopath, his motives white as snow
And everywhere that Dumbty went, his lawyers had to go
Until he fired the last of them and tweeted them to death
Now naked before the cameras he gave his usual, coiffured show
Until the rednecks abandoned him for a really sassy cowgirl. ;-)

[Gerald Kelleher]

Post by palsing
Do you know what else you could see from Saturn?

The phases of the Earth and the smaller orbital circumference which allows for that perspective just as Venus displays those orbital traits to us.

You would also see the stars transition from left to right of the Sun as Saturn orbits our central star just as we see the transition from the Earth for stars close to the orbital plane.

I am delighted that people do understand the new perspectives and I, as a Christian, am not put out by the lack of personal acknowledgement. Another Paul ,after which you are named, said what this total unselfishness means concisely -

"What have you that you have not received from God? and if you have received it, why do you glory as if you had not received it?"

[palsing]

Post by Gerald Kelleher

Post by palsing
Do you know what else you could see from Saturn?

The phases of the Earth and the smaller orbital circumference which allows for that perspective just as Venus displays those orbital traits to us.
You would also see the stars transition from left to right of the Sun as Saturn orbits our central star just as we see the transition from the Earth for stars close to the orbital plane.
I am delighted that people do understand the new perspectives and I, as a Christian, am not put out by the lack of personal acknowledgement. Another Paul ,after which you are named, said what this total unselfishness means concisely -
"What have you that you have not received from God? and if you have received it, why do you glory as if you had not received it?"

Actually, I was named after an actor and comedian named Paul Desmond, who was a close friend and classmate of my father. Perhaps he was named after another Paul, but of this, I have no knowledge.

Yes, all fine and dandy, but you have not confirmed my earlier observation that from Saturn you would observe our moon rotating on its axis once for each of its revolutions around the Earth. It is the case, you know, no matter how much you want to deny it.

[Gerald Kelleher]

Post by palsing

Post by Gerald Kelleher

Post by palsing
Do you know what else you could see from Saturn?

The phases of the Earth and the smaller orbital circumference which allows for that perspective just as Venus displays those orbital traits to us.
You would also see the stars transition from left to right of the Sun as Saturn orbits our central star just as we see the transition from the Earth for stars close to the orbital plane.
I am delighted that people do understand the new perspectives and I, as a Christian, am not put out by the lack of personal acknowledgement. Another Paul ,after which you are named, said what this total unselfishness means concisely -
"What have you that you have not received from God? and if you have received it, why do you glory as if you had not received it?"

Actually, I was named after an actor and comedian named Paul Desmond, who was a close friend and classmate of my father. Perhaps he was named after another Paul, but of this, I have no knowledge.

The Christian Paul was a man who came to understand that the law is there to protect life but becomes a drag on individual existence when it attempts to be controlling. In this respect there are no empirical 'laws' which preface nature, physics, gravity ect other than the ones invented in the heads of those who would propose themselves before creation itself and fashion astronomy towards their own unworthy ends. Much like the Bible, astronomical history is largely untidy with insights emerging and then lost, different traditions at odds with each other and no clear path despite the tendency, in respect to the Bible, by either denominational Christianity and atheists forcing a narrative to suit moral laws or unbelief.

Post by palsing
Yes, all fine and dandy, but you have not confirmed my earlier observation that from Saturn you would observe our moon rotating on its axis once for each of its revolutions around the Earth. It is the case, you know, no matter how much you want to deny it.

From Saturn an observer would see the Earth rotate in two distinct ways even when the planet's circle of illumination would intervene as the Earth's approached the orbit of Saturn at our relative closest points. With Uranus we have a clear and unambiguous view of these rotations in action due to the differences between daily axial inclination and the rotation parallel to the orbital plane of that planet along with its equatorial rings -

http://youtu.be/612gSZsplpE


With orbital periods in proportion of 4 degrees to one orbital circuit of the Earth around the Sun and a distance of roughly 1 980 000 000 miles there is no meaningful objection to the proposal of dual surface rotations leading to the conclusion that when daily rotation and all its effects are subtracted, a planet still turns one entire revolution to the Sun, turns parallel to the orbital plane and its period coincident with one orbital period given that the rotation is a function of orbital motion. The Earth does not have equatorial rings like Saturn or Uranus but the graphic is useful in demonstrating the same orbital rotation when allied with polar points -

http://afewbitsmore.com/img/2015_ecliptic.png


It is impossible to consider planetary climate for all planets in the solar system without emphasizing the relationship between the two rotations and specifically how axial inclination of daily rotation references off the rotation relative to the orbital plane.