Discussion:
Tabby's Star Dimming Again
(too old to reply)
Quadibloc
2018-03-27 19:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Saw this news item:

https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/266474-alien-megastructure-star-enters-another-dimming-phase

John Savard
Chris.B
2018-03-29 06:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/266474-alien-megastructure-star-enters-another-dimming-phase
John Savard
It's not a megastructure. It's our vast, Tabby, invasion fleet. The individual mega-ship's routes vary slightly on their spiraling flight path to Earth. So they regularly cross your line of sight to Tabby's Star.

Please tell your Herr Trumpet to get a proper hair cut by Thursday week.
Only complete capitulation on the W.H.Lawn is acceptable to Us.

Thanks and best regards,

Miaow the Great CXXVIII
RichA
2018-03-29 21:47:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris.B
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/266474-alien-megastructure-star-enters-another-dimming-phase
John Savard
It's not a megastructure. It's our vast, Tabby, invasion fleet. The individual mega-ship's routes vary slightly on their spiraling flight path to Earth. So they regularly cross your line of sight to Tabby's Star.
Please tell your Herr Trumpet to get a proper hair cut by Thursday week.
Only complete capitulation on the W.H.Lawn is acceptable to Us.
Thanks and best regards,
Miaow the Great CXXVIII
P.S. U.S. economy (you know, something that actually matters, as opposed to gold-digging whores) is doing FANTASTIC!
Chris L Peterson
2018-03-29 22:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by RichA
Post by Chris.B
Post by Quadibloc
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/266474-alien-megastructure-star-enters-another-dimming-phase
John Savard
It's not a megastructure. It's our vast, Tabby, invasion fleet. The individual mega-ship's routes vary slightly on their spiraling flight path to Earth. So they regularly cross your line of sight to Tabby's Star.
Please tell your Herr Trumpet to get a proper hair cut by Thursday week.
Only complete capitulation on the W.H.Lawn is acceptable to Us.
Thanks and best regards,
Miaow the Great CXXVIII
P.S. U.S. economy (you know, something that actually matters, as opposed to gold-digging whores) is doing FANTASTIC!
Not really. The economy is in pretty poor shape, with wealth disparity
increasing and more and more people in deep shit due to medical
expenses.

Businesses are generally doing fine. That's a lousy metric for the
economy.
Gary Harnagel
2018-03-30 12:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
Post by RichA
P.S. U.S. economy (you know, something that actually matters, as opposed
to gold-digging whores) is doing FANTASTIC!
Not really. The economy is in pretty poor shape, with wealth disparity
increasing and more and more people in deep shit due to medical
expenses.
Businesses are generally doing fine. That's a lousy metric for the
economy.
Really? Do you mean businesses that provide actual JOBS and health
benefits for those "poor" folk? Or are you talking about those people
that work for US in gov't. jobs?

The work force is at a mere 4% so the economy is "in pretty poor shape"?
Normally, 4% would be a GREAT number, but many people stopped looking for
work thanks to the mishandling of the economy in previous years. Counting
them, it's probably more like 9 or 10%, but that number is dropping while
the 4% number is holding fairly steady.
Chris L Peterson
2018-03-30 17:38:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 05:16:30 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
Post by Gary Harnagel
Post by Chris L Peterson
Post by RichA
P.S. U.S. economy (you know, something that actually matters, as opposed
to gold-digging whores) is doing FANTASTIC!
Not really. The economy is in pretty poor shape, with wealth disparity
increasing and more and more people in deep shit due to medical
expenses.
Businesses are generally doing fine. That's a lousy metric for the
economy.
Really? Do you mean businesses that provide actual JOBS and health
benefits for those "poor" folk? Or are you talking about those people
that work for US in gov't. jobs?
Businesses provide jobs. They shouldn't be allowed to provide health
benefits; that's one of our problems. But having a job doesn't mean
you're in a good position. Employment is also a poor indicator of
economic health.

The U.S. economy is a disaster.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-30 18:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 05:16:30 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
On Thursday, March 29, 2018 at 4:38:28 PM UTC-6, Chris L
On Thu, 29 Mar 2018 14:47:31 -0700 (PDT), RichA
Post by RichA
P.S. U.S. economy (you know, something that actually
matters, as opposed to gold-digging whores) is doing
FANTASTIC!
Not really. The economy is in pretty poor shape, with wealth
disparity increasing and more and more people in deep shit due
to medical expenses.
Businesses are generally doing fine. That's a lousy metric for
the economy.
Really? Do you mean businesses that provide actual JOBS and
health benefits for those "poor" folk? Or are you talking about
those people that work for US in gov't. jobs?
Businesses provide jobs. They shouldn't be allowed to provide
health benefits; that's one of our problems. But having a job
doesn't mean you're in a good position. Employment is also a
poor indicator of economic health.
The U.S. economy is a disaster.
Jus because you can't get a job that pays better than minimum wage
flipping burgers doesn't mean nobody else can.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Chris L Peterson
2018-03-30 21:15:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 11:07:59 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Chris L Peterson
The U.S. economy is a disaster.
Jus because you can't get a job that pays better than minimum wage
flipping burgers doesn't mean nobody else can.
I don't need a job. But plenty of people are working their asses off
for not much pay.

A healthy economy would not have the wealth disparity we see in the
U.S.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-30 22:49:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 11:07:59 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Chris L Peterson
The U.S. economy is a disaster.
Jus because you can't get a job that pays better than minimum
wage flipping burgers doesn't mean nobody else can.
I don't need a job.
Until Mommy and Daddy pass away, and you can't live in the basement
any more, anyway.
Post by Chris L Peterson
But plenty of people are working their asses
off for not much pay.
A healthy economy would not have the wealth disparity we see in
the U.S.
The poor in the US live better than the upper middle class in most of
the world.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Razzmatazz
2018-03-30 22:55:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Until Mommy and Daddy pass away, and you can't live in the basement
any more, anyway.
You know something, what you wrote above could be taken as an indication of a lack of intellect, and sets a very poor example if you really want to convince people of your ideas. Why not elevate your dialog and come out looking reasonably intelligent instead of acting like a 3rd grader. Debate the ideas and forget the insults.

Razzy
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-02 15:41:10 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:49:29 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Until Mommy and Daddy pass away, and you can't live in the
basement any more, anyway.
You know something,
I know many things.
what you wrote above could be taken as an
indication of a lack of intellect,
You are stupid, yes.
and sets a very poor example
if you really want to convince people of your ideas.
Y'all must be new around here, if you believe that I'm trying to
convince anyone of anything.
Why not
elevate your dialog
What would be the point of that?
and come out looking reasonably intelligent
instead of acting like a 3rd grader.
See, here's the thing, son: I'm imitating you. So if I look
childish, you're looking in a mirror.
Debate the ideas and forget
the insults.
Debate requires honest, well informed dialog from both sides.
Neither you nor Chris is capable of such, so your attempt to troll
the master has failed.

You can't win. The only way to not lose is to not play. You played.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Razzmatazz
2018-04-03 01:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:49:29 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Until Mommy and Daddy pass away, and you can't live in the
basement any more, anyway.
You know something,
I know many things.
what you wrote above could be taken as an
indication of a lack of intellect,
You are stupid, yes.
and sets a very poor example
if you really want to convince people of your ideas.
Y'all must be new around here, if you believe that I'm trying to
convince anyone of anything.
Why not
elevate your dialog
What would be the point of that?
and come out looking reasonably intelligent
instead of acting like a 3rd grader.
See, here's the thing, son: I'm imitating you. So if I look
childish, you're looking in a mirror.
Debate the ideas and forget
the insults.
Debate requires honest, well informed dialog from both sides.
Neither you nor Chris is capable of such, so your attempt to troll
the master has failed.
You can't win. The only way to not lose is to not play. You played.
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Your point is? The top of your head perhaps?

Razzy
Chris.B
2018-04-03 05:10:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Razzmatazz
Your point is? The top of your head perhaps?
Razzy
He has no need of a head. He never uses it so why bother having one?

One the other hand..

https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/bile-duct-diseases
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-04 16:47:00 UTC
Permalink
You two really ought to get a room. You don't want ot leave stains on
teh carpet.
Post by Chris.B
Post by Razzmatazz
Your point is? The top of your head perhaps?
Razzy
He has no need of a head. He never uses it so why bother having one?
One the other hand..
https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/bile-duct-
diseases
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Razzmatazz
2018-04-04 17:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
You two really ought to get a room. You don't want ot leave stains on
teh carpet.
Post by Chris.B
Post by Razzmatazz
Your point is? The top of your head perhaps?
Razzy
He has no need of a head. He never uses it so why bother having one?
One the other hand..
https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/bile-duct-
diseases
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
What's a teh carpet?
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-04 18:45:07 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 11:47:03 AM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
You two really ought to get a room. You don't want ot leave
stains on teh carpet.
Post by Chris.B
Post by Razzmatazz
Your point is? The top of your head perhaps?
Razzy
He has no need of a head. He never uses it so why bother
having one?
One the other hand..
https://www.health.harvard.edu/diseases-and-conditions/bile-du
ct- diseases
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
What's a teh carpet?
I know y9ou are, but what am I?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-04 16:46:31 UTC
Permalink
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 10:41:14 AM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:49:29 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Until Mommy and Daddy pass away, and you can't live in the
basement any more, anyway.
You know something,
I know many things.
what you wrote above could be taken as an
indication of a lack of intellect,
You are stupid, yes.
and sets a very poor example
if you really want to convince people of your ideas.
Y'all must be new around here, if you believe that I'm trying
to convince anyone of anything.
Why not
elevate your dialog
What would be the point of that?
and come out looking reasonably intelligent
instead of acting like a 3rd grader.
See, here's the thing, son: I'm imitating you. So if I look
childish, you're looking in a mirror.
Debate the ideas and forget
the insults.
Debate requires honest, well informed dialog from both sides.
Neither you nor Chris is capable of such, so your attempt to
troll the master has failed.
You can't win. The only way to not lose is to not play. You
played.
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Your point is? The top of your head perhaps?
I know you are, but what am I?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Razzmatazz
2018-04-04 17:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 10:41:14 AM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:49:29 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Until Mommy and Daddy pass away, and you can't live in the
basement any more, anyway.
You know something,
I know many things.
what you wrote above could be taken as an
indication of a lack of intellect,
You are stupid, yes.
and sets a very poor example
if you really want to convince people of your ideas.
Y'all must be new around here, if you believe that I'm trying
to convince anyone of anything.
Why not
elevate your dialog
What would be the point of that?
and come out looking reasonably intelligent
instead of acting like a 3rd grader.
See, here's the thing, son: I'm imitating you. So if I look
childish, you're looking in a mirror.
Debate the ideas and forget
the insults.
Debate requires honest, well informed dialog from both sides.
Neither you nor Chris is capable of such, so your attempt to
troll the master has failed.
You can't win. The only way to not lose is to not play. You
played.
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Your point is? The top of your head perhaps?
I know you are, but what am I?
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
You're off your meds again. Call Nurse Ratched tout suite!
Oh look, squirrel!
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-04 18:44:40 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 11:46:35 AM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Monday, April 2, 2018 at 10:41:14 AM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 5:49:29 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Until Mommy and Daddy pass away, and you can't live in
the basement any more, anyway.
You know something,
I know many things.
what you wrote above could be taken as an
indication of a lack of intellect,
You are stupid, yes.
and sets a very poor example
if you really want to convince people of your ideas.
Y'all must be new around here, if you believe that I'm
trying to convince anyone of anything.
Why not
elevate your dialog
What would be the point of that?
and come out looking reasonably intelligent
instead of acting like a 3rd grader.
See, here's the thing, son: I'm imitating you. So if I look
childish, you're looking in a mirror.
Debate the ideas and forget
the insults.
Debate requires honest, well informed dialog from both
sides. Neither you nor Chris is capable of such, so your
attempt to troll the master has failed.
You can't win. The only way to not lose is to not play. You played.
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more
asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Your point is? The top of your head perhaps?
I know you are, but what am I?
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
You're off your meds again. Call Nurse Ratched tout suite!
Oh look, squirrel!
I know you are, but what am I?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Razzmatazz
2018-04-04 22:01:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I know you are, but what am I?
A Dipstick? I dunno, you tell me what you are.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-04 23:08:06 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 1:44:44 PM UTC-5, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I know you are, but what am I?
A Dipstick? I dunno, you tell me what you are.
I know you are, but what am I?

(You will now reply.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Razzmatazz
2018-03-30 22:50:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 05:16:30 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
Post by Gary Harnagel
Post by Chris L Peterson
Post by RichA
P.S. U.S. economy (you know, something that actually matters, as opposed
to gold-digging whores) is doing FANTASTIC!
Not really. The economy is in pretty poor shape, with wealth disparity
increasing and more and more people in deep shit due to medical
expenses.
Businesses are generally doing fine. That's a lousy metric for the
economy.
Really? Do you mean businesses that provide actual JOBS and health
benefits for those "poor" folk? Or are you talking about those people
that work for US in gov't. jobs?
Businesses provide jobs. They shouldn't be allowed to provide health
benefits; that's one of our problems. But having a job doesn't mean
you're in a good position. Employment is also a poor indicator of
economic health.
The U.S. economy is a disaster.
The US economy is not a disaster. It's quite healthy on a global perspective, as healthy as any other and better than most. Our GDP is one of the highest, certainly higher than China and other so-called global economic powers. That fact doesn't mean that the economic benefits are being distributed evenly. However, that's a result of the type of government that the Americans have voted for, quite consistently.

Economic power is in the hands of the educated elites who know how to generate revenue streams, whether in manufacturing, money management or service providing. These people are productive and generally don't give a rip about the plight of the economically disadvantaged. They have successfully captured the government so that economic benefits flow toward them. They are also very competitive and do whatever is needed to win in their favor. They will not cede ground out of the goodness of their hearts. Economic competition is the be-all and end-all of the game and the losers will be pushed aside.

I do not expect the politics of this country to change, I think we are stuck in this present mode for the foreseeable future until automation has taken away income from so many people that only a drastic change will convince the dunces to vote in their own economic interest. Right now the "dunces" are easily sidelined politically by simple "bumper sticker" slogans. They will happily give away their future for "Second Amendment Freedom" or an "End to baby killing Planned Parenthood". They don't realize that even these two simple concepts are very complex things in a society and that they are being used to strip them of their future.

Razzy
Chris L Peterson
2018-03-30 23:39:49 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:50:23 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
Post by Razzmatazz
Post by Chris L Peterson
The U.S. economy is a disaster.
The US economy is not a disaster.
That does, of course, depend on the metrics we use to evaluate it. I
don't place much value on GDP, on employment. We have massive and
growing wealth disparity, we have massive amounts of capital being
held out of circulation by corporations, we have a significant
percentage of our population living under poorer conditions than their
parents lived under, we have crumbling infrastructure, we spend more
than we collect.

By my assessment, that's a disaster. It's unsustainable, and when it
collapses it isn't going to be pretty.
Razzmatazz
2018-03-31 00:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:50:23 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
Post by Razzmatazz
Post by Chris L Peterson
The U.S. economy is a disaster.
The US economy is not a disaster.
That does, of course, depend on the metrics we use to evaluate it. I
don't place much value on GDP, on employment. We have massive and
growing wealth disparity, we have massive amounts of capital being
held out of circulation by corporations, we have a significant
percentage of our population living under poorer conditions than their
parents lived under, we have crumbling infrastructure, we spend more
than we collect.
By my assessment, that's a disaster. It's unsustainable, and when it
collapses it isn't going to be pretty.
But I already told you why. It's in the voting pattern of Americans. Nearly a third of Americans cannot name a single branch of government, and almost 40 percent are unable to cite a right guaranteed by the First Amendment. Only a handful of states require proficiency in civics and government as a condition of graduation. The educational system, with its fear of confrontational topics and its corporate-driven emphasis on STEM, has failed them. On top of that, educating young people is not held in high esteem here, unlike other advanced nations.

On top of that, a lot of people consider all politicians to be crooks, and don't have the reasoning ability to sort truth from propaganda. That cynicism has cost them dearly and will continue to do so until we take education seriously and teach people how to think and reason.

Take a look at the political cycle in the USofA:
https://thenib.com/the-corruption-cycle
Razzmatazz
2018-03-31 00:25:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Razzmatazz
Post by Chris L Peterson
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 15:50:23 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
Post by Razzmatazz
Post by Chris L Peterson
The U.S. economy is a disaster.
The US economy is not a disaster.
That does, of course, depend on the metrics we use to evaluate it. I
don't place much value on GDP, on employment. We have massive and
growing wealth disparity, we have massive amounts of capital being
held out of circulation by corporations, we have a significant
percentage of our population living under poorer conditions than their
parents lived under, we have crumbling infrastructure, we spend more
than we collect.
By my assessment, that's a disaster. It's unsustainable, and when it
collapses it isn't going to be pretty.
But I already told you why. It's in the voting pattern of Americans. Nearly a third of Americans cannot name a single branch of government, and almost 40 percent are unable to cite a right guaranteed by the First Amendment. Only a handful of states require proficiency in civics and government as a condition of graduation. The educational system, with its fear of confrontational topics and its corporate-driven emphasis on STEM, has failed them. On top of that, educating young people is not held in high esteem here, unlike other advanced nations.
On top of that, a lot of people consider all politicians to be crooks, and don't have the reasoning ability to sort truth from propaganda. That cynicism has cost them dearly and will continue to do so until we take education seriously and teach people how to think and reason.
https://thenib.com/the-corruption-cycle
Here's another Sorensen: Loading Image...
Chris L Peterson
2018-03-31 05:10:28 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:10:23 -0700 (PDT), Razzmatazz
Post by Razzmatazz
On top of that, a lot of people consider all politicians to be crooks, and don't have the reasoning ability to sort truth from propaganda. That cynicism has cost them dearly and will continue to do so until we take education seriously and teach people how to think and reason.
We need to recognize that the government is us, not them. We need an
educated populace. We need an informed populace.

Realistically, I don't see any of those things happening. I think a
collapse is the most likely scenario.
Chris.B
2018-03-31 06:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
Realistically, I don't see any of those things happening. I think a
collapse is the most likely scenario.
A good government is always open to constructive criticism.
A bad government takes revenge for criticism.

A good government realizes that 50% of the people are unrepresented.
A bad government has wealthy lobbyists as "best friends."

A good government has no need of private funding.
A bad government is always in debt to the sociopathic rich.

A good government serves all its people.
A bad government employs lip service to the people's needs.

A good government constantly tries to do better.
A bad government is constantly afraid of the truth coming out.

A good government has a strong news service.
A bad government has no news service [at all.]

A good government sees the people as a vital resource to be nurtured.
A bad government sees the people as a resource to be exploited.

A good government is respected. So needs no vast armed forces budget.
A bad government will sell arms and cannon fodder to anyone.

A good government aids each fledgling democracy to flourish.
A bad government seeks only to steal their national resources.

A good government abhors abuse and slavery.
A bad government employs both practices routinely.

A good government cherishes its national parks and its environment.
A bad government exploits its "wastelands" for private profit.

A good government contributes to international science.
A bad government throws taxpayer's cash at weapons development.

A good government enjoys international respect.
A bad government demands respect at gunpoint.

A good government enjoys low crime figures by sharing wealth.
A bad government has full prisons and nobody is safe.

A good government has no need of superheroes for justice.
A bad government has laws and lawyers to protect itself from justice.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43601557

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43596812
Chris L Peterson
2018-03-31 14:02:46 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 23:10:27 -0700 (PDT), "Chris.B"
Post by Chris.B
A good government realizes that 50% of the people are unrepresented.
In a good government, 100% of the people are represented. Because is a
good government, the representatives represent their entire
constituency, not just the ones who voted for them.
Davoud
2018-03-31 17:09:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
Post by Razzmatazz
The US economy is not a disaster.
That does, of course, depend on the metrics we use to evaluate it. I
don't place much value on GDP, on employment. We have massive and
growing wealth disparity, we have massive amounts of capital being
held out of circulation by corporations, we have a significant
percentage of our population living under poorer conditions than their
parents lived under, we have crumbling infrastructure, we spend more
than we collect.
By my assessment, that's a disaster. It's unsustainable, and when it
collapses it isn't going to be pretty.
I agree with your assessment in general, but I don't believe that a
precipitous collapse is coming. My experiences while living in the
Third World for quite a few years tell me that a nation can be in
decline socially, morally, and (for the masses) economically for a very
long time without their being a crisis point. You and I have to try to
come to terms with the fact that this is no longer "our" -- yours and
my -- country. Americans in sufficient numbers have rejected liberal
democracy, embraced racism (now permitted to be manifested openly) and
xenophobia, rejected education (elitist) and embraced misogyny and
theocracy. I don't see that changing. I wish I could get to the point
where I just say "I've got mine, screw everyone else." That's very hard
for a life-long idealist.
--
I agree with almost everything that you have said and almost everything that
you will say in your entire life.

usenet *at* davidillig dawt cawm
Chris L Peterson
2018-03-31 17:17:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Davoud
Post by Chris L Peterson
By my assessment, that's a disaster. It's unsustainable, and when it
collapses it isn't going to be pretty.
I agree with your assessment in general, but I don't believe that a
precipitous collapse is coming. My experiences while living in the
Third World for quite a few years tell me that a nation can be in
decline socially, morally, and (for the masses) economically for a very
long time without their being a crisis point. You and I have to try to
come to terms with the fact that this is no longer "our" -- yours and
my -- country. Americans in sufficient numbers have rejected liberal
democracy, embraced racism (now permitted to be manifested openly) and
xenophobia, rejected education (elitist) and embraced misogyny and
theocracy. I don't see that changing. I wish I could get to the point
where I just say "I've got mine, screw everyone else." That's very hard
for a life-long idealist.
I also agree broadly with your comments here. I do think that on the
whole the morality of the country has been steadily improving over the
last century, and continues to do so. Unfortunately, the decline in
education and general awareness is resulting in monumental problems.

Whether or not there will be a rapid collapse remains to be seen. A
decline in a third world country may not be a good model for a decline
in a developed one.
Chris.B
2018-04-01 05:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
Whether or not there will be a rapid collapse remains to be seen. A
decline in a third world country may not be a good model for a decline
in a developed one.
There is usually a trigger event which causes a sudden major collapse.
It just has to hit one of the countless fault lines in a hideously unequal society.

The continuing appeal of superheroes is a clear indicator of a severe lack of social justice.
Religion is basically an appeal to a higher authority for social justice where absolutely none exists.

The huge and growing disparity in wealth is set up like a hurdle to trip the US nation.
Now add increasing disparity, universal robotics and AI to this tottering skittle in a maelstrom of change.
It is not the insane sociopathy of commercial health care which threatens most.
But the massive overburden of lawyers which may crush the last vein of creative human resources into worthlessness.

Human society is constantly exposed to the get-rich-quick syndrome.
Where only luck or criminality are seen as the only possible way upwards for most.
The irony is that the conspiracy theorists are half right.
They just don't know which half or whom is their very real devil.

Is Trumpet really "The Joker??" Or a cold and brutal, criminal mastermind?
Perhaps, more importantly, what can possibly follow his reign of deeply damaging chaos?
When the appeal to vote for the next "highest authority" has patently and repeatedly failed to produce social justice and freedom from poverty.. what then?
Gary Harnagel
2018-03-31 12:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 05:16:30 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
Post by Gary Harnagel
Post by Chris L Peterson
Post by RichA
P.S. U.S. economy (you know, something that actually matters, as
opposed to gold-digging whores) is doing FANTASTIC!
Not really. The economy is in pretty poor shape, with wealth disparity
increasing and more and more people in deep shit due to medical
expenses.
Businesses are generally doing fine. That's a lousy metric for the
economy.
Really? Do you mean businesses that provide actual JOBS and health
benefits for those "poor" folk? Or are you talking about those people
that work for US in gov't. jobs?
Businesses provide jobs. They shouldn't be allowed to provide health
benefits; that's one of our problems.
At least when businesses provide health benefits, they make sure they're
not losing money, like Uncle Sam is. Healthcare by gov't. edict is
unsustainable. THAT'S the real disaster.

And throughout my career, I was thankful to have healthcare through my
employers. There wasn't any other kind.
Post by Chris L Peterson
But having a job doesn't mean you're in a good position. Employment is
also a poor indicator of economic health.
Agreed because it doesn't account for wage disparity; however, bare wages
tend higher with age. An honest metric would be to measure wage disparity
within age groupings. I don't believe things would look so grim. We
seem to worry a lot about the top 1% having in 90% of the wealth, or
whatever, but is that really an honest metric?

A lot of the wage disparity is due to education and lack thereof, and that
disparity has a lot to do with personal choice/ability.
Post by Chris L Peterson
The U.S. economy is a disaster.
I'm with Razzy on that. There has ALWAYS been the rich and the poor,
and there always will be until people themselves become perfect. One
attribute of a "perfect" person is a significant contribution to that
ol' GDP. If that happened there would still be wage disparity, but it
wouldn't matter because goods would be essentially free. Not sure
about services, though. We need to make some serious advances in robotic
engineering for that to happen, in which case robots would be just more
free goods.
Chris L Peterson
2018-03-31 14:05:00 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 05:16:25 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
Post by Gary Harnagel
At least when businesses provide health benefits, they make sure they're
not losing money, like Uncle Sam is. Healthcare by gov't. edict is
unsustainable. THAT'S the real disaster.
I'm not sure what "healthcare by government edict" means. But I do
know that the best healthcare systems in the world are all paid for by
public funds, and are operating sustainably.
Post by Gary Harnagel
I'm with Razzy on that. There has ALWAYS been the rich and the poor,
and there always will be until people themselves become perfect.\
And there should be. But we can limit how rich and how poor using
smart public policy.
Razzmatazz
2018-03-31 15:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Harnagel
At least when businesses provide health benefits, they make sure they're
not losing money, like Uncle Sam is. Healthcare by gov't. edict is
unsustainable. THAT'S the real disaster.
Since I own a business and am over 65 I am both a provider of health insurance and a beneficiary of socialized medicine. I can tell you that having to pay for private health insurance is a disaster for small business, especially manufacturing. We cannot compete on the world market when a huge portion of our cost is the amount we have to fork over to health insurance companies who raise their rates at double digits every year while cutting coverage to boot.

At the same time I have Medicare which is a godsend at my age. Although I'm relatively healthy, my experience with socialized medicine is totally positive. The few times that I needed an expensive procedure, it was paid for without Sturm und Drang and I received no bills and was not hassled about which doctor or which hospital could do the procedure.

I cannot imagine what my rate would be if I had to buy private health insurance at my age. I'm sure they are all eager to sign up all us seniors who as a group have massive health problems. I once asked our company insurance agent what it would cost to insure someone in their 70's, and he laughed and said probably your entire salary for the year.

Seniors laugh at young people who vote Republican and deny themselves a more rational health care system like every other advanced country. And at the same time seniors vote Republican in droves because they don't want to pay taxes to fund education for the young. They don't have kids in school so they could not care less - send your kids to private school if you want them educated is their motto.

This kind of thinking will not change any time soon but it is short sighted. Seniors live on dividends and investments, and it is the young who are working and producing those corporate dividends. Short those young people enough and watch those dividends evaporate.

Razzy
Gary Harnagel
2018-04-01 11:54:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Razzmatazz
Post by Gary Harnagel
At least when businesses provide health benefits, they make sure they're
not losing money, like Uncle Sam is. Healthcare by gov't. edict is
unsustainable. THAT'S the real disaster.
Since I own a business and am over 65 I am both a provider of health
insurance and a beneficiary of socialized medicine. I can tell you that
having to pay for private health insurance is a disaster for small
business, especially manufacturing.
That wasn't a problem 20 years ago when I worked for a research/engineering/
manufacturing company (laser diodes), but I suspect it was coming. Obamacare
just precipitated the looming disaster.

BTW, kudos for contributing to the GDP :-)
Post by Razzmatazz
We cannot compete on the world market when a huge portion of our cost is
the amount we have to fork over to health insurance companies who raise
their rates at double digits every year while cutting coverage to boot.
One of the problems may be that we as US citizens expect more in healthcare
than the country can afford. OTOH, Medicare gives me very good service, too.
Personally enjoyable but ruinous to the country in the long run. The ONLY
solution (other than collapse or extreme cutbacks) is to increase the GDP
so there is more dollars to be taxed.
Post by Razzmatazz
At the same time I have Medicare which is a godsend at my age.
For now :-|
Post by Razzmatazz
Although I'm relatively healthy, my experience with socialized medicine
is totally positive. The few times that I needed an expensive procedure,
it was paid for without Sturm und Drang and I received no bills and was
not hassled about which doctor or which hospital could do the procedure.
I have had similar experiences. As a businessman, though, you MUST know
that the system is in trouble.
Post by Razzmatazz
I cannot imagine what my rate would be if I had to buy private health
insurance at my age.
I retired at 58 and paying my own health insurance was pretty bad then. I
managed to avoid major problems until I reached 65. I just passed that
line when they had to vacuum out my kidneys :-)
Post by Razzmatazz
I'm sure they are all eager to sign up all us seniors who as a group have
massive health problems. I once asked our company insurance agent what
it would cost to insure someone in their 70's, and he laughed and said
probably your entire salary for the year.
Seniors laugh at young people who vote Republican and deny themselves a
more rational health care system like every other advanced country.
Unless we can grow the economy, it's a zero-sum game. As my old econ prof
said, it's guns or butter.
Post by Razzmatazz
And at the same time seniors vote Republican in droves because they don't
want to pay taxes to fund education for the young. They don't have kids
in school so they could not care less - send your kids to private school
if you want them educated is their motto. This kind of thinking will not
change any time soon but it is short sighted.
The public education system is one of the things that's one the verge of
collapse. Too many kids are in a what-me-worry/free-ride culture. My
oldest daughter was a straight A kid, but in high school her grades
dropped to C's and D's ... because of peer pressure! There was no solution
until she started dating a straight A boy! There was a different outcome
for my older son. A teacher set him up with an absolutely poisonous
philosophy. He tended toward the WMW/FR philosophy anyway, but it confirmed
to him that it was the "right" approach.

Today, charter schools seem to be the coming thing that might pull the
public system up where it belongs.
Post by Razzmatazz
Seniors live on dividends and investments, and it is the young who are
working and producing those corporate dividends.
Corporations also need capital, which is provided by those investing seniors.
Post by Razzmatazz
Short those young people enough and watch those dividends evaporate.
Razzy
Short those dividends enough and watch new capital disappear. The market
has been in a low-dividend morass for a decade. Trump has brought back
some confidence if nothing else, but that will evaporate unless something
solid happens.

Gary
Quadibloc
2018-04-01 15:56:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gary Harnagel
One of the problems may be that we as US citizens expect more in healthcare
than the country can afford.
Well, naturally.

Obviously, it is wrong, wicked, and contradictory to all our tenets of morality
and ethics, to stand by while someone is dying when we can save that person's
life. So if we have the technical knowledge to save lives, we must apply it,
though it may cost millions of dollars to save a single life.

Part of the problem, though, is that right now new drugs, for example, are
researched by private enterprise. And so they have to recoup their costs by
charging more than the marginal cost of production of those drugs.

Had the research and development been funded by the taxpayer *in the first
place*, there would be no need to demand high prices of the sick, as the
research would already have been paid for. And surely it's as important to cure
every disease as it was to build the atomic bomb, so how can one object?

If the money came from taxpayer's pockets in the first place, rather than from
private companies whose stockholders could then be pillaged by new legislation,
perhaps the country might confront how much it is willing to pay for health
care? Socialism is less bad when the voters are taxing their own pockets than
when they are robbing someone else and thus destroying incentive.

John Savard
Gary Harnagel
2018-04-02 12:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Gary Harnagel
One of the problems may be that we as US citizens expect more in healthcare
than the country can afford.
Well, naturally.
....
Part of the problem, though, is that right now new drugs, for example, are
researched by private enterprise. And so they have to recoup their costs by
charging more than the marginal cost of production of those drugs.
Had the research and development been funded by the taxpayer *in the first
place*, there would be no need to demand high prices of the sick, as the
research would already have been paid for.
John, TANSTAAFL: There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (or more
grammatically, TINSTAAFL).

Many potential drugs don't pan out, but you have to wade through many, many
possibilities to find the jewels. That costs MONEY. It doesn't matter
where the money comes from, it MUST be spent. And do you REALLY believe
gov't bureaucrats would spend the money as wisely as corporations? And
do you REALLY believe gov't leaders would allocate sufficient funds to do
all the necessary work? The present system actually works because drug
treatments are subsidized by the gov't.
Post by Quadibloc
And surely it's as important to cure every disease as it was to build the
atomic bomb, so how can one object?
The bomb project was a crash program and very wasteful, but it had a time
limit. Diseases are almost infinite and new ones show up all the time.
That may seem comparable to further bomb research, but it's much, much
more expensive.

Take a look at ALL the biotech companies in the stock markets. They lose
money every year yet investors keep pouring more money into them hoping to
strike it rich. Most go broke, but who do you think pays for that? It's
not the gov't.
Post by Quadibloc
If the money came from taxpayer's pockets in the first place, rather than
from private companies whose stockholders could then be pillaged by new
legislation, perhaps the country might confront how much it is willing to
pay for health care? Socialism is less bad when the voters are taxing their
own pockets than when they are robbing someone else and thus destroying
incentive.
John Savard
The money ALWAYS comes from the taxpayers in the present setup as well as
ANY alternative, except the "just let them die" option. I believe private
enterprise is generally more efficient than government.
Chris L Peterson
2018-04-02 13:37:40 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
Post by Gary Harnagel
And do you REALLY believe
gov't bureaucrats would spend the money as wisely as corporations?
In general, yes. Public funding is pretty much the only thing that has
ever worked for scientific research that was long term or which didn't
promise immediate commercial results (or in some cases, didn't suggest
any commercial results at all).
Gary Harnagel
2018-04-03 11:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
Post by Gary Harnagel
And do you REALLY believe
gov't bureaucrats would spend the money as wisely as corporations?
In general, yes. Public funding is pretty much the only thing that has
ever worked for scientific research that was long term or which didn't
promise immediate commercial results (or in some cases, didn't suggest
any commercial results at all).
Agreed ... for long-term vs. short term. But long term is already being
funded by the gov't.
Chris L Peterson
2018-04-03 13:48:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 3 Apr 2018 04:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
Post by Gary Harnagel
Post by Chris L Peterson
On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
Post by Gary Harnagel
And do you REALLY believe
gov't bureaucrats would spend the money as wisely as corporations?
In general, yes. Public funding is pretty much the only thing that has
ever worked for scientific research that was long term or which didn't
promise immediate commercial results (or in some cases, didn't suggest
any commercial results at all).
Agreed ... for long-term vs. short term. But long term is already being
funded by the gov't.
Only in some cases. There are many areas where private enterprise is a
poor tool for providing something. This includes a lot of health care,
and that includes at least a number of areas of pharmaceutical
development, I think.
Gary Harnagel
2018-04-04 11:13:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris L Peterson
On Tue, 3 Apr 2018 04:39:33 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
Post by Gary Harnagel
Post by Chris L Peterson
On Mon, 2 Apr 2018 05:14:19 -0700 (PDT), Gary Harnagel
Post by Gary Harnagel
And do you REALLY believe
gov't bureaucrats would spend the money as wisely as corporations?
In general, yes. Public funding is pretty much the only thing that has
ever worked for scientific research that was long term or which didn't
promise immediate commercial results (or in some cases, didn't suggest
any commercial results at all).
Agreed ... for long-term vs. short term. But long term is already being
funded by the gov't.
Only in some cases. There are many areas where private enterprise is a
poor tool for providing something. This includes a lot of health care,
and that includes at least a number of areas of pharmaceutical
development, I think.
I know of some development of vaccines for virulent stuff by CDC, but I'm
not aware of pill development and such. I see a LOT of private pharma
outfits coming and going away.
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